Dr. Abdullah, Foreign Minister of Afghanistan

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Transcript by Federal News Service

[Joined in progress.]

MR. HAQQANI: -- know something about healing people, and is now busy since the Bonn accord to try to heal the various difficulties and problems that have afflicted Afghanistan -- two decades of turbulence beginning with the Soviet occupation, the subsequent civil war and Taliban rule. Dr. Abdullah played a key role in the U.N.-sponsored Afghan peace conference in Bonn, and also helped shape the outcome of the national loya jirga, the grand council, last year. I hope that we will get an opportunity to hear from him today about the security situation in Afghanistan, the status of the reconstruction, reports that we have heard about the Taliban regrouping, especially in the south and the east of the country, relations between Kabul and various regional forces inside Afghanistan, the new Afghan constitution, and the outlook for Afghanistan in the years to come. All things that people from the think tanks, people from the media, people from academia, people from the development community, as well as the diplomatic community in Washington, D.C., have an interest in. So without much ado, I will request Dr. Abdullah to come and speak with us.

MIN. ABDULLAH: Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim -- in the name of God. Thank you, Mr. Haqqani, and I would like to thank Carnegie Endowment for International Peace for inviting me and providing this opportunity for us to talk about Afghanistan. I have been in Washington to attend the Afghan American Summit on Reconstruction, which was sponsored by Georgetown University; also taking advantage of the time I had meetings and I will have meetings today with Senate and House leaders from both sides of the aisles. And tomorrow I will have meetings, and tomorrow I will have meetings at the White House and State Department.

It is an important time in the history of Afghanistan, as well as the global war against terrorism. The campaign has started in a more comprehensive, more vigorous manner post-September 11th only, of course anti-terrorism is not something new, but the campaign in such a manner that we are witnessing today. It has started in Afghanistan, ironically, in the past two or three decades two important events, which are of global scale one way or another Afghanistan was an important player in the campaign against Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. We played a role in defeating the Soviets in Afghanistan, and that helped. That was a factor in bringing freedom to millions and millions of people in our region and beyond. In that the United States, the West, the Islamic world, stood by the people of Afghanistan, and helped us. And later Afghanistan suffered because of different other ways, invaded by terrorists. And there as well it is in the center, and it should be in the center of this campaign. It is that issue which makes it even more important, and as we tend towards meeting you here, I was talking to Mr. Haqqani that one of the challenges might be to maintain the focus in the interest of Afghanistan, because of the importance and significance of it for everybody -- not just because of Afghanistan and its interests. It is our common interest, which should keep us on board as far as Afghanistan issues are concerned.

Afghanistan is moving toward a democratic system, and Afghanistan people are appreciating the opportunity to live in peace with each other, to live in peace with their neighbors, and to contribute in a positive manner in global affairs. And this unique opportunity for the people of Afghanistan, we couldn't imagine it some years ago. I see faces and friends at this meeting which we used to talk about the situation in Afghanistan, and I am delighted to see Ambassador Kamirov of Uzbekistan, of which we used to talk a lot about Afghanistan and have lots of discussions, and a lot more other friends.

A few things were happening in those days. There was an effort by the Afghan people -- an effort to maintain their independence, their identity as a Muslim nation, a Muslim country, but with lots of characteristics, to defend their territory, but being invaded by forces of such large scale and dimensions that only today we have -- the rest of us in the rest of the world have better account of what we are talking about. Terrorists, by all means from all corners of the world have found it as a sanctuary, as a base, as a center -- not only to operate in Afghanistan, but by using Afghanistan to establish their networks. In our region beyond our region global networks.

I mentioned opportunity. For the first time it was only -- it was after September 11th when the United States led the coalition campaign against terrorism that the people of Afghanistan were provided with this opportunity. And we seized it. The people of Afghanistan seized this opportunity, and soon after there was the Bonn process and establishment of the interim government, and later on the loya jirga, the transitional government of Afghanistan. That it was really a new beginning for the Afghans. Afghans who are inside Afghanistan, Afghans who were living as refugees in our neighboring countries, Afghans who were respected in different parts of the world. And people from all walks of life, of all ethnic backgrounds, and political backgrounds -- they got together in shaping up the new Afghanistan. So when a country is in such a phase and such a stage, and being a part of a global campaign, that's where I mentioned at the beginning it is an important time for all of us. And I will touch upon a few aspects of the situation to begin with, and then leave enough time for questions and answers. Easy questions I will take. Difficult ones I will pass.

Security. A lot is being said about security in Afghanistan, and security is a real challenge. It is not just a story. It is a real challenge for Afghanistan, but I wouldn't touch upon the achievements in that field. I might have to pinpoint a few problems in that sense and what could be done about it. The main threat still comes from the remnants of Taliban and al Qaeda, the main security threat. That is very obvious.

As a result of developments in Afghanistan in the past, prior to September 11th, which Afghanistan was a harbor for terrorist groups and networks and a c enter, all of them -- and then post-September 11th events terrorist groups got disconnected. When they lost Afghanistan they got disconnected -- their networks, different groups in different parts of our region -- they got disconnected because Afghanistan was not with them anymore to provide them that connection and that link and that sort of command and control structure which Afghanistan was providing, or the situation in Afghanistan was providing.

This was what was happening post-September 11th. After the defeat of Taliban and al Qaeda, after a while they started to be shaping in another way. Of course it is not -- it was impossible for them to regroup in the manner what they used to do, but in a different way. And if I may briefly touch upon the strategy of terrorism in Afghanistan, in our part of the world, which is a part of the global strategy, it would be to disappoint the people of Afghanistan from the opportunity which is provided for them, by destructing the reconstruction world, by creating security problems and so on and so forth. To disappoint the international community, which are the friends of Afghanistan and discourage them from their support for Afghanistan, and to send a message to their followers that they are not being defeated. At the same time try to connect back to their own networks in the region and beyond the region. These would be the main points as far as their strategy, the strategy of terrorist groups are concerned. And what you see in Afghanistan then one can judge it based on these elements of the strategy, what do they mean, what do they want out of these incidents in Afghanistan.

And the fact that they are being able to continue creating destructions in Afghanistan, I think that I want to be very clear. This is not like putting the blame on a country or on a group outside Afghanistan, but to explain the situation, because there are lots of things that we should be doing, and we can do and we should do together with our coalition partners which will affect the situation inside Afghanistan in a way that diminishes the impact of the activities by terrorist groups. But it is one clear fact: Taliban will not be able to operate inside Afghanistan without support from some elements outside Afghanistan. That's, period. There is no argument. It is not like sort of a judgment out of perceptions. It is a factual -- it is a fact that Taliban are receiving support -- from groups, from individuals, from whatever it is outside Afghanistan. And they have found it easy to operate outside Afghanistan, and to hold meetings, to hold gatherings and to incite instability in Afghanistan, and to call for jihad in Afghanistan. This is one important fact. Again, I repeat it is not that -- my intention is not to underestimate the domestic factors, which have to be improved, or the environment inside Afghanistan. But touching upon a very important factor. If you hear about security incidents inside Afghanistan, where are these people coming from? Where do they get their ammunition? Where do they treat their wounded people? When we are talking about dozens of people crossing the borders, how it can happen? What happens to those people, those famous Taliban leaders -- what has happened -- who are living outside Afghanistan in a free environment? This has been one of the challenges of our foreign policy as well as our government as a whole.

When we started the interim government, and I started serving as the foreign minister, one of the focuses of our foreign policy was improvement of our relations with our neighboring countries, with all our neighboring countries. Based on the new realities of Afghanistan, based on the needs of stability in Afghanistan and a much wider region, based on the common vision, for the common interests of a region which had the potential to destabilize further, to go down the road of instability and a dark future. But out of the irony of the events of the world, it was provided an opportunity for taking a different path, which was the path towards stability, integration, economical opportunities and prosperity and so on and so forth.

While talking about Afghanistan being the hub for terrorists in the center of our terrorist networks. The new opportunity in Afghanistan has turned Afghanistan into a sort of land-bridge country which connects South Asia to Central Asia -- Central Asia to the Middle East and the whole region can benefit from it. This is the vision of a new Afghanistan as far as our look towards the region is concerned.

Based on that hope in which we started our efforts with our neighboring countries -- the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, the Islamic Republic of Iran, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and China -- and farther down in the region.

And there has been progress in that field. Lots of agreements have been signed in trade and transit and transport for our common interests, and lots of cooperation is going on in terms of helping Afghanistan, enabling Afghanistan to play such a role. Reconstruction activities inside Afghanistan is being supported by all our neighbors, without exception. This was the type of situation which we expected and we hope that we will continue to build upon for a better future for all of us.

I shouldn't sound disappointed on that view and on that wish, but I would touch the problems which we all are faced as far as this view of our region is concerned. One of the main problems, again it is the activities of the Taliban and remnants of al Qaeda. With our neighboring country, Pakistan, we started our engagement in the early days of the establishment of the government, and we continue to do so now.

And there has been lots of progress as far as our relations are concerned, in different fields, including trade and transit agreement which we are very close to finalization of the last items which we would like to see in that agreement, which is an old agreement, and continue. Pakistan is helping us in reconstruction work. Lots of people are participating, individuals from Pakistan. You would be surprised to see that thousands of workers are working in the cities of Afghanistan, and especially in Kandahar, those of Pakistani nationality, in private sector, and they have taken this opportunity for their own interest. These are the progress in that field. President Karzai talks to President Musharraf quite frequently. I talk to Foreign Minister Kasuri through telephone, or we have biannual meetings, ministerial-level meetings.

But I think out of all which is happening, we should be able to see that we are moving from one stage to another, where the trust is built between both countries further, the situation -- the areas of cooperation is expanded, the concerns are being addressed, and one would be able to build upon the present situation for a much better relations in all aspects of life between the two countries.

I would say I should admit that we have missed lots of opportunities in that, in that field, which -- later on I might talk about it.

But this is one area of security concern, and there are domestic factors, like the presence of armed groups inside Afghanistan. We have quite a few armies inside the country, which is not a situation which will be a -- it is not a situation that our people would like to see. Our people would like to see Afghanistan stable, and they know it's through national security institutions, at place in democratic process, that it is achievable.

So in that regard, progress has been made. There are -- a few thousand people in the National Army have been trained, and also in our national police force. And the reform in the Ministry of Defense has taken place, and other parts of the security sector. The DDR program is under way, which is demobilization, disarmament and reintegration, and so on and so forth, which will help security inside Afghanistan.

If I may touch another aspect of the situation, which is reconstruction of Afghanistan, to the eyes of the people of Afghanistan, there are lots of questions; there are lots of complaints, might be, about the reconstruction work inside Afghanistan, because what the people of Afghanistan remember in Bonn conference was the world promised, provided Afghans make an agreement for peace and a commitment for democratic process, Afghanistan will be reconstructed, and the world will help Afghanistan in its reconstruction. This is what the people of Afghanistan remember.

We are grateful for the support for reconstruction of Afghanistan, but in the first year, last year, in 2002, most of the assistances allocated for reconstruction of Afghanistan was absorbed in the humanitarian area, not reconstruction. Afghanistan was in a humanitarian crisis in that period, and still humanitarian assistances are needed. So it is why the people do not see lots of reconstruction work as a result of the first year of activities, besides other factors, like while talking about reconstruction and development, it has phases which one has to follow until one sees the results.

Another issue which from time to time the people tend to complain about it is the fact that assistances are not provided directly to the Afghan government, but it is going through other channels. This was also a reality which we had to face at the beginning, because the government didn't have the capacity at that stage, but that situation is changing. And today, the ownership of the Afghans in the programs of reconstruction of Afghanistan is increasing, and increasing further. That has changed.

While a big question before the people of Afghanistan would be that would Afghanistan remain a country which would have to rely on foreign assistances forever for its survival, or there are chances that Afghanistan could move from this stage to another one, which is standing on its own feet. Looking at the realities of the ground and the situation in Afghanistan and the opportunities, Afghanistan has the biggest potential for such a situation to stand on its own feet. At the same time, Afghanistan is faced with enormous challenges towards that -- (word inaudible). The hope of the people of Afghanistan is to see support for Afghanistan maintained and channeled in a way to enable Afghanistan to stand on its own feet in a few years time.

If you just take the transit location of Afghanistan for gas and oil, for energy, for goods between Central Asia and South Asia, for trade, this could serve as a factor which will enable Afghanistan to develop. The same applies to other factors. Afghanistan is rich with minerals and resources. The fact that thousands of Afghans, or millions of Afghans outside the country -- hundreds of thousands of them have had opportunity for learning in different parts of the world, and they are willing to contribute to the reconstruction of Afghanistan. All these are factors which will help Afghanistan's reconstruction.

It is in that line that we are working, the government of Afghanistan, with friends of Afghanistan on the idea of holding a conference, international conference on Afghanistan, next year -- hopefully, February -- to provide an opportunity for review of the situation of the past two years and help Afghanistan in looking long term as far as development, in economical development in reconstruction of Afghanistan is concerned.

MORE The political process -- a draft constitution is now with the people of Afghanistan, and they will have the chance to look at it, and it will be ratified by a loya jirga, hopefully in a few weeks time, in December. General elections in June 2004. We are working on it, and registration of voters will start in a few weeks time. I think the date set at this stage is September (sic) 11th for registration of voters in cities, big cities in Afghanistan, and later on -- December, yeah -- and later on making it a nationwide practice.

One issue which we -- I personally, and also the government, considers it as a challenge, it is the challenge of perception about Afghanistan. The perception of Afghanistan as a country which is ethnically divided, and the ethnic groups will continue to fight forever with each other without a sense of national unity, that's a challenge. That does not reflect the realities of Afghanistan, and there are lots of arguments which one can prove it otherwise. But it is a prevailing perception. Whatever happens in Afghanistan, whatever decision is made in Afghanistan, it is interpreted on that line.

While there are real issues which have to be addressed, like the full representation of all ethnic groups in the democratic process, which is something which the democratic process itself provides for, it started in Bonn, at Bonn, and then continued at loya jirga, in next loya jirga, in general elections. But still, that perception prevails outside Afghanistan. And the reflection of it has negative impacts back home; the reflections of such perception in media has certain impacts back in the country. But the reality is that the people of Afghanistan from all ethnic groups, they have started living together, working together for their future, and now they have the opportunity for practicing their rights, and the constitution of Afghanistan provides them this opportunity, and the people of Afghanistan appreciate it.

Now, a situation where every single individual will be satisfied throughout the process is not foreseen. But I think the majority of the people of Afghanistan, they appreciate this opportunity which is provided for them. And hopefully, with this continuation of support from the international community, they will be able to lay the foundation for a future stable, democratic and prosperous Afghanistan.

One of the issues which is -- which I should consider it among the challenges, it is the narcotics. It is a single issue which has a major destabilizing potential.

It can threaten the whole process, every aspect of the process, the construction, political, general elections, stability and security and so on and so forth.

This is an area which we need to focus more and we expect the international community to help us further in combating this menace. And especially when one looks at the length between terrorism and narco-mafia, then it becomes even more imminent a threat. So I think to begin with, I was thinking about talking for five, 10 minutes, but now it is, I don't know, how much.

MR. HAQQANI: I think it was a productive five minutes. (Laughter.) I think we can start taking questions now and if you'll just identify yourself and your organization or your affiliation, I'm sure that we can take the question. Yes -

Q I just wanted to ask you to elaborate a little bit on what steps you think that neighboring countries and the U.S. can take in helping to deal with the situation you mentioned of the -

MIN. ABDULLAH: Sure. Although there are mechanisms at place like trilateral mechanism, which the United States, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, are discussing security-related matters, and it comes under that context, the issue of the Taliban activities and what they are doing inside Afghanistan and outside Afghanistan. Pushing through this mechanism, as well as through our bilateral links, we hope that a few steps, clearer steps, would be taken, you know, in the direction which we think it is to the interest of Afghanistan, the interest to Pakistan, and the interest of our friends, in the interests of peace and stability as a whole. For example, if the leaders of Taliban, which are inciting instability and calling for a jihad against the people of Afghanistan and our international partners, if they are allowed to do it freely, certainly this will have an impact on the situation in Afghanistan.

While if they are being stopped, at the first step, it will have positive impacts on the situation in Afghanistan. The international community can do it in different ways and means, including enabling Afghanistan by creation of national security institutions, speeding up those efforts. And reconstruction work in the areas of Afghanistan where Taliban and al Qaeda would like to capitalize, reconstruction activities in those areas will create a different environment which will not be to their expectations. These are some of the things which we need to do.

But as a whole, the realization of the fact of the situation in Afghanistan has changed. It is a positive change. It's not against anybody's interests, any of our neighboring countries. There are no basis to believe that Afghanistan's development will hurt any of our neighboring countries. So the realization of this fact, and based upon that, making comprehensive efforts to help that situation, is something which we expect.

Q John Sawyer, St. Louis Post Dispatch. Dr. Abdullah, there's discussion in our administration of applying an Afghan type model to the political transition in Iraq. Is that appropriate in your view, and could you discuss a bit some of the lessons of your experience as applied to Iraq?

MIN. ABDULLAH: I'm betting that I'm not an expert on Iraq, but knowing the situation to the extent one would know. I think efforts in the direction where Iraqi people will feel that they are in charge of their affairs, in strengthening those efforts and reinforcing measures to create that feeling among the people of Iraq, will help. The establishment of the governing council was a major step. But helping them to be a credible one, a relevant one, more relevant one, I think will help the situation.

Then, talking about security related matters, while some of the incidents which are taking place are related to the former Ba'ath Party, members or relatives of Saddam, Saddam Hussein, at the same time from when we could see, one could see al Qaeda signature in most of the activities which are taking place there.

So, while dealing with this dimension of the problem is something which has to be done in Iraq, it has to be done in Afghanistan, and elsewhere, again, I talked about the strategy of terrorists and terrorism. The -- our strategy, the strategy of the international community should be also clear, and they should get the clear signals. Enabling Afghanistan to move from this situation and overcome the challenges which are ahead of us, will help the United States in the situation in Iraq, will disappoint the terrorists from their activities, will demoralize them. So there are areas which one could draw lessons from the situation in Afghanistan. And there are, of course, certain things which are specific situation for Iraq.

MR. HAQQANI: Doctor Abdullah, may I add a question there? You've spoken about the Taliban remnants being active in parts of Afghanistan or acting up again, are there are any al Qaeda remnants as well or do you have any information on that subject?

MIN. ABDULLAH: Yes, in one or two cases where there was sort of suicidal attempts against the German soldiers some months ago. There were al Qaeda links. And in fact, between the leadership of Taliban and al Qaeda, to distinguish them, it's not possible, I mean. Al Qaeda would not be able to do anything inside Afghanistan without Taliban links, to begin with.

But beside that, they were a part of the same agenda, they were a part of the same strategy, they were using the same methods. So this is also another area which we want and expect a better realization as far as our friends and neighboring countries are concerned.

MR. HAQQANI: Very good. The gentleman here.

Q Barry Hart (ph), Afghanistan American Foundation. Good to see you, Mr. Minister. With regard to the new funds that would be voted by the U.S. Congress for reconstruction efforts, I'm wondering where do you see the crying need for these funds to be used, and have you had discussions that were positive or negative with regard to getting the needs that you feel are important actually accomplished?

MIN. ABDULLAH: First of all, this new supplemental package, it came very timely, at a very important juncture, and we are discussing it in the government, within the government, as well as with the U.S. side, how to utilize it in the most effective and efficient manner. The security sector will absorb a part of it, certainly, like the training of the police force and reforming the security sector. Areas of infrastructure, like energy sector irrigation, and education and health, resettling of refugees, capacity building, and women's affairs, empowerment of women in the society, helping the political process. These are the areas which, in general, we hope that we'll be able to utilize this fund.

Q (Name and affiliation off mike.) Mr. Minister, you pointed out that narcotics is one of your priorities, and while we realize that the interim government at this time perhaps lacks the resources and resources for a grassroots effort, perhaps you could tell us what's being done, one, at an international level, and international cooperation against this, and also, what is being done by the interim government to prevent the corruption of the process and of government that is often marked by booming narcotics efforts in other parts of the world?

MIN. ABDULLAH: First of all, there were measures which were taken by the interim government and transitional government like eradication programs, last year and this year. In the areas which those eradication programs were carried out, it was successful. Like in Helmand province, which narcotics has been a problem for so many years, 45 per cent reduction in crops this year, it was an achievement. But at the same time, there were other examples as well, like in Uruzgan and something in Kandahar and Jalalabad as well. But people have started growing yet in some other areas. It takes us to the point that unless there is a comprehensive strategy to deal with this issue, this problem will continue to disrupt the situation and create causes of concern for all of us. The comprehensive strategy will mean that Afghanistan should be enabled, should be supported, to deal with it at all levels, at the level of the farmers. Even in the areas which we don't have this problem of drug cultivation, we should focus on those areas in order to prevent the area of cultivation from growing farther, in the areas which we have it 40 year, in the areas which recently have it started. So, a sort of comprehensive package of measures are needed in order to deal with it in the level of the farmers. And level of law enforcement measures, legal work which is needed, and cooperation with our neighbors in international cooperation.

And the realization of the fact for the consumer countries, that they are suffering. Countries are spending hundreds of millions of dollars to deal with this issue back home. But it starts from Afghanistan unfortunately at this stage. And the government of Afghanistan is committed and dedicated, and the people of Afghanistan; they showed their willingness to cooperate. Eradication programs wouldn't have been successful without support from the people. Even support from the people, which they use it as the sole means of livelihood. They supported eradication programs, with the hope to see a change in the future for life with dignity and not using illegal ways and means. If that opportunity is not provided to the people of Afghanistan, this problem has a tendency to get complicated and further complicated. And I think the focus needs to be redoubled by all of us.

As far as the issue of corruption is concerned, as a whole and also drug-related corruption, it is a challenge which will harass us for years to come. In a post-conflict country, suffering for years and years in an environment like today's situation in Afghanistan, one could imagine what is happening. But strong measures have been taken in order to reduce it. For example, if I just take the measures which the Minister of Finance has taken as far as the custom regulations are concerned, and reducing those bureaucratic redtaping, these are the measures which will have impact in short-term and long-term, and will help us.

Then, of course, providing opportunities for the people, the right opportunity, the legal base for it, which is the -- our constitution and laws which is promoting private activity and the people are benefiting from it. But the situations are changed in Afghanistan. And the fact which I referred to at the beginning, that would Afghanistan remain a country which relies on foreign assistance forever? Then other problems will continue with it, should that be the scenario. There are problems toward a different -- in line with the different scenario, then we will see improvement in those areas as well.

Q Sean Waterman from United Press International. You spoke earlier about Taliban leaders who were out calling for a jihad. Could you name them, and could you say which of your neighbors are not cracking down on them?

MR. HAQQANI: (Laughter.) There are a lot of neighbors of Afghanistan as we all know.

MIN. ABDULLAH: We are working and we are engaged with all of our neighbors, but especially with our neighboring country, Pakistan. Because most of those people are in Pakistan. The names, every name with a sort of -- which are used in Afghanistan, add a mullah, before or after. Mullah Omar is, of course, in hiding somewhere. But with a few other leaders. But names like Mullah Abdul Dalon (ph), Mulla Abdul Kabir, Mullah Deten. -- (Audio break) -- They are there to create problems.

MR. HAQQANI: The gentleman in the back.

Q Following up on the Taliban question, Dr. Abdullah -- first, I'm Bill Royce, Voice of America. What's the mystery on Wakil Ahmed, the former foreign minister of the Taliban? Could you clarify that? Some people say he's been released. I think the American government more or less says he hasn't. It's quite a mystery why this gentleman -- what's happening to him inside Afghanistan?

MIN. ABDULLAH: He has not been released. That's -- unfortunately there were conflicting reports about his fate. He's in Afghanistan. He's in Kabul, I should say. But he has not been released.

MR. HAQQANI: How did this rumor start? Would you like to enlighten us about the former -- the Taliban foreign minister, Wakil Ahmed Muttawakil? I mean, how do you think these rumors started that he had been released if he hadn't been released?

MIN. ABDULLAH: The rumor starts one way or another. But this one perhaps when he was transferred from one place to another, that gave rise to some rumors.

MR. HAQQANI: Here.

Q -- the State Department. I was just wondering, Mr. Minister, if you could comment a little more fully on the constitution and where it is now. And has a date been set for the loya jirga? How are the arrangements coming along for that?

MIN. ABDULLAH: It was just a few days ago when we had the final draft of the constitution published and printed, and thousands of prints have been distributed to the people of Afghanistan throughout the country. This started just a few days ago.

The procedure, according to the Bonn process, would be to hold loya jirga in December. And the date which is talked about at this stage is 10th of December. Then loya jirga might take a few days, like 10 days perhaps, to give the opportunity for the representatives to discuss it and to ratify it. So by the end of December, we are hoping to have our constitution finalized.

Q Stanley Kober (sp) with the Cato Institute. Several times you referred to the Afghan people. My question is, what defines a people? What defines a nation? British India divides into India and Pakistan, two nations. Pakistan then divides into Pakistan and Bangladesh, two further nations. We had this problem in the United States. We had a Civil War. Before the Civil War, it's "The United States are." After the Civil War, "The United States is." How do you create national identities, for example, in Pakistan, in Afghanistan, that supersede the Pashtun identity of people on both sides of the border?

MIN. ABDULLAH: The situation in Afghanistan is such that, despite what happened in the past three decades, invasions and civil unrest and war, the people are very clear about their identity as Afghans. People from all ethnic groups, they call themselves Afghans.

For example, we have Uzbeks in Uzbekistan, our neighboring country, while we have Uzbeks in Afghanistan. The Uzbeks in Afghanistan, they consider them as Afghans, but with Uzbek ethnicity inside of the main identity as Afghans.

The same applies to Tajiks in Afghanistan and Tajiks in Tajikistan. We have Turkmens in Afghanistan and Turkmens in Turkmenistan. Then we have Pashtuns in Afghanistan and Pashtuns outside Afghanistan. But as a whole, the people of Afghanistan, they identify themselves as Afghans. And this comes first.

There were lots of attempts and efforts to divide Afghanistan into the ethnic lines, which have not succeeded and will not succeed. So this is -- it is a country with a history of perhaps thousands of years and being invaded several times throughout the course of history and survived as a nation and as a country.

And the future of Afghanistan also will be a country which people will live together and exist with each other and be a part of a unity state, while, of course, starting from the smallest minorities up to the biggest minority, individuals would like to see their rights protected in the constitution.

MR. HAQQANI: Rashed and then the gentleman right behind him.

Q Rashed Chowdhury, Carnegie Endowment. There have been reports, of course, starting from Mr. Karzai coming to power, about Pashtuns being disgruntled with the amount of representation in Kabul, with President Karzai being basically the only high-ranking Pashtun in the new government. So do you think if he's elected as the first president under the new constitution, with more of a clear mandate from the people, do you think he will broaden the Pashtun representation in Kabul?

MIN. ABDULLAH: This is also another area which I might take a little bit of time to focus on.

First of all, President Karzai is not the only Pashtun leader in the top ranking. And President Karzai, his first identity is Afghan. The second one -- Afghan, Muslim and Pashtun. And he will get across what anybody who would define him otherwise. And that's what Afghanistan needs. That's the type of leadership and vision which Afghanistan needs at this juncture.

If you take the cabinet of Afghanistan, if we stick on that point, ethnicity, then starting from the vice presidents and going to the ministerial level -- the minister of interior, the minister of finance, the minister of rural development, the minister of communications, the other ministers.

And then myself, by my identity -- I wouldn't call it discrimination, but I would say the sort of ignorance. My father came from Kandahar, Pashtun, and my mother from north of Kabul, from Panjshir. But during the resistance, I stayed with Commander Massoud -- I mean, resistance against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, and later on as well during the resistance against Taliban terrorism.

I've been referred to as one of the leaders of another ethnic group, which there is no harm in it, but I mentioned the issue of perception earlier. You see how things will be affected. Then security is affected -- because the forces of the United Front were the first forces who entered Kabul and naturally, in the security sector, the military and interior and defense ministries. Those were the dominant people in the security sector.

Reform has already started. Now we have the first deputy defense minister, a well-known personality in Afghanistan, General Rahim Wodaq (ph), which is a Pashtun. And all other 22 top posts in the ministry of defense, it has been selected based on their professionalism, as well as with the issue of representation in mind.

So this is not the situation. The process started with Bonn, continued with loya jirga. We will have general elections which every individual will have the right to vote. So it is the rights of the people of Afghanistan, all the people of Afghanistan, without discriminating against minority or majority, which is important. It is happening throughout the process.

Q Guy Dinmore from the Financial Times. I was in Iran a couple of years ago after -- during the time that the Northern Alliance entered Kabul. And it was -- many of us journalists were interviewing Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, and we were rather confused why it was that Iran, which clearly had a close relationship with the Northern Alliance, allowed Hekmatyar to go back to Afghanistan in early 2002, although one theory was that the Iranians were so angry with the U.S. reaction to what they believed was their cooperation in Afghanistan, so they sent back Hekmatyar to be a thorn in the side of the American forces.

Could you say more about Hekmatyar? What kind of military influence is he having in southern Afghanistan now, whether he's actually based in Pakistan, or does he still have any sort of support coming across the border in Iran? Thank you.

MIN. ABDULLAH: Hekmatyar was -- prior to September 11th, he was against the Taliban. He was saying that he was against the Taliban. He was not with the Taliban at that time. Throughout his career, he had, one way or another, links with the terrorist groups, one way or another. That's obvious. But later on, when he went public about his agenda, then I think the Iranian government expelled him. They said this was the official position of the Iranian government.

And he is now hiding. He has joined the club of missing people, like Osama and Mullah Omar. Most probably he's outside Afghanistan. And as far as his influence is concerned, of course, as somebody who was a leader and an important leader during the resistance against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, he had some followers, some channels of support.

And he is a part of the troublemakers. Almost always he has been a part of the problem rather than being a part of the solution. But he doesn't enjoy support among the people. He didn't during his different periods in the campaign. And he lost even the amount which existed there when he took different positions. But he could have a few followers, and this could help Taliban to some extent.

MR. HAQQANI: Right at the back.

Q Hi. Himen (ph) Oratiz (ph) from the Washington Times. What kind of impact do events in Iraq have in Afghanistan? When the forces opposed to the coalition forces over there have success, is that felt in Afghanistan? And have any of the jihadis in Afghanistan left for Iraq? And also, do you see any shift in U.S. attention with the war in Iraq from Afghanistan?

MIN. ABDULLAH: The impact of the situation in Iraq -- I think that's very clear. Had the situation not been complicated, as it seems to be, it would have had much more positive impact on the situation in Afghanistan. Events in Iraq might have emboldened the terrorists, which are around in our area. That might have been one of the impacts.

The focus -- was it shifted from Afghanistan to another case? There is a sort of natural consequence when two major events are taking place at the same time. That's natural. It starts with the media to begin with. Being in Washington the past few days and not being in Washington the past few months, I know and I can realize that it's not Afghanistan which is on the front pages. It is another issue. And this will have some impact on the public opinion as far as the views of the people are concerned.

But the good thing about Afghanistan is that when you -- if you follow the events and the support which was extended to Afghanistan afterwards, the issue of Iraq didn't take the share of Afghanistan. In fact, there were countries, including the United States, which they committed more than they had initially pledged for Afghanistan; in the recent supplemental packages, an example of such a situation.

As far as the jihadis in Afghanistan is concerned, no, I'm not aware of anybody from Afghanistan going to Iraq to fight there. That has not taken place, while perhaps al Qaeda, which were in the neighborhood of Afghanistan, might have found it another theater of operations and might have shifted to some extent there.

But it is important for the United States and the international community to succeed in Afghanistan as well as in Iraq in the stabilization of Iraq and giving the people of Iraq the right opportunities.

Afghanistan -- and I have always said this -- it was and it is the biggest test for the international community, and it will affect the effectiveness of international endeavors elsewhere, whatever happens in Afghanistan. And Afghanistan has the potential to become a visible success, and the opportunity is now. And we hope this opportunity is seized by the international community as a whole.

MR. HAQQANI: We'll take a couple more questions together, and then the minister can answer them. And I'd like both of the questions to come together so that he can answer them together, and then we can try and end it, because the minister is also fasting, being the month of Ramadan. We don't want to exhaust him beyond ten a.m.

Q I'm Jonathan Wright from Reuters. There was, of course, a brief flurry of interest in the possible expansion of ISAF outside Kabul, and then the Germans agreed to deploy in Kunduz. Are you making any progress in finding people to deploy in other areas? And can you tell us about what you think the prospects are for that actually happening?

MR. HAQQANI: Can you pass the microphone on so we can have the other question as well? And this can be --

Q Hi. Dan Cork (sp) from the National Endowment for Democracy. I wonder if you'd comment on the human rights situation in Afghanistan, particularly regarding the capacity of the Human Rights Commission in terms of education and monitoring human rights abuses, and also progress in sensitizing police and security forces to human rights issues. Thank you.

MIN. ABDULLAH: Expansion of ISAF, to get the mandate, I think was the result of hard work. It took some time to get the mandate, Security Council, United Nations Security Council mandate for expansion. I think now it is the real hard work to get the countries to contribute and implement Security Council Resolution 1510.

And expansion of ISAF has been a need right from the beginning. I recall very well when we were talking about the deployment of the force reconnaissance teams of ISAF. My point to our colleagues, international partners, was that it will have the best impact on the situation if you are able to deploy ISAF right from the beginning to a few areas, not just in Kabul. And this was a need.

And then, from the other side, I knew the constraints. I knew how difficult and how hard an option it was. But today the need is there, and we hope that countries will move quicker in contributing resources and personnel for implementation of expansion of ISAF mandate.

Human rights. There are two aspects for it. One is according to the law and constitution, what is the situation, which I think our draft constitution provides the right environment and provisions in order to protect human rights, including the authority of the independent human rights commission.

Then, in actual terms, to practice it, to implement it, like every other factor, it cannot be considered outside the context of the whole process in Afghanistan. While there has been improvement, and a lot of improvement, and millions of people in Afghanistan are enjoying their rights, and they are feeling it, but to get to a situation where rights of every citizen is protected, it is, I think, a long way to go, and I'm sure with the pace that it has been happening.

People of Afghanistan were under virtual house arrest. I'm talking about 25 million population, out of which, if you take 60 percent women in Afghanistan, they were under house arrest, and outside their homes they were arrested on daily basis. And the situation for men was not better or desirable at any cost during the old rule.

That has changed as a whole. If you just take freedom of press, freedom of speech, in some cases it has gone beyond the actual limits of freedom of speech, which the government is ignoring when it goes beyond that, because the people should enjoy the new opportunity (until?) we have the whole program implemented.

As far as the security forces are concerned, yes, the ministry of interior, for the first time they established a department of human rights inside the ministry. Its job is to educate the police force how to deal with it. Then there are other areas like education and developmental programs which will help us to promote human rights. But as with every other part of the process, we are at the start….

MR. HAQQANI: Thank you. (Applause.) Thank you very much, Dr. Abdullah. Ladies and gentlemen, I think we've come to the end of our morning session. And thank you all for coming.

[END OF EVENT.]