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Lasting peace in Ukraine will require justice and accountability. How can the world break the cycle of state repression, violence, and impunity that enabled Russia and its ally, Belarus, to launch their criminal war of aggression against Ukraine?
Join the Carnegie Endowment, the National Endowment for Democracy, and the 2022 Nobel Peace Prize laureates for a conversation about human rights, historical memory, and accountability. The program will feature leaders from the Ukrainian Center for Civil Liberties and Russian human rights organization Memorial, as well as a representative of jailed Belarusian activist and director of the human rights organization Viasna, Ales Bialiatski. This event is being organized in partnership with eQualitie, a Canadian digital security organization focused on promoting free speech and human rights. The conversation will be moderated by CNN’s Bianna Golodryga.
Event Transcript
Note: this is a rush transcript and may contain errors.
Dan Baer:
Good morning and welcome to everybody who's here with us in person and joining us online. It is a pleasure to have you here at the Carnegie Endowment for National Peace. My name is Dan Bear. I'm the Senior Vice President for Policy Research here and today's event is a special one on many levels. First of all, it represents a partnership between Carnegie, the National Endowment for Democracy and Equality. And I'd like to thank my good friend Damon Wilson and his team for all the work that they put in as well as Dmitri Vitalia for all the work that Equality put in to making this event possible today.
This event is also important to me personally. I served as a US diplomat for eight years during the Obama administration. First as a Deputy Assistant Secretary for Human Rights, and then as US Ambassador to the OSCE and during the course of that service, got to interact with all three of the organizations that are represented here today. One in particular that I'd like to single out is the organization that Oleksandra Matviichuk leads, which is the Center for Civil Liberties in Ukraine. I got to see Alexandra last summer in Kyiv. But I feel a special pride because in the wake of Boris [inaudible 00:24:47]'s killing a group of colleagues in Vienna decided to get together and create a human rights prize, a democracy defender prize eight years ago now.
And we looked across the OSCE region to find somebody who was worthy of this prize, somebody who was young and gave us hope for the future. And we selected Oleksandra for that prize eight years ago. And I feel like I was a little bit ahead of the curve then beating the Nobel Committee for that. I want to just close by saying we're really grateful also to have Bianna Golodryga with us here today, a good friend and thank you for your service and joining us in this conversation and leading it. Damon, over to you.
Damon Wilson:
Ambassador Dan, thank you so much. First of all, it's great to be here with someone who is such a champion and advocate for democracy and human rights. Thank you for the partnership today, and thank you to Dmitri who's with us who helped make this whole gathering happen. So Oleksandra Matviichuck, Ales Bialiatski, through Kanstantsin Staradubets: and Aleksander Cherkasov, they're all embroiled in a conflict with the Russian government and Vladimir Putin as chief antagonist. Their work is bound together by shared values of dignity and their shared purpose in seeking accountability for those who violate basic human rights. And together they demonstrate the civil society in these three countries share a vision for peace and democracy in the region.
Together they make a compelling case that a durable just peace is possible only by ending the cycle of impunity that has empowered Putin and Alexander Lukashenko. Through their moral vision, their dedication, their courage, they demonstrate the power of civil society that lies at the heart of the mission of the National Endowment for Democracy. And they demonstrate the extraordinary power of working together in solidarity.
This war in the heart of Europe, a savage and brutal war that Ukraine's fighting for all of us, for our values, for our lives, is a war of gruesome atrocities. And documenting and investigating those crimes takes an army of brave human rights defenders, prosecutors, investigators working closely with each other in common cause across borders. And when the Russian War on Ukraine escalated into a full scale invasion in February 24, last year, Ukrainian civil society, all of our partners, they didn't ask to help evacuate the country. They asked for support and continuing to carry out their important work. And hardly a month after the invasion, [inaudible] Oleksandra Matviichuk, she joined our board meeting at the Endowment. You'll remember this, she joined by video and she had to join from a shelter in Kyiv during a rocket attack.
And she said that she didn't know how long she would be able to live. There was much uncertainty at the time in the war, but she said that she had no choice but to remain in Kyiv to document human rights violations. It's because of people like Oleksandra that Ukraine will win. Russia's imperial war against Ukraine is the most terrible manifestation of its own lack of freedom and colonial ambitions. Russia's ability to wage the war is enabled by its repression against its own civil society and continuing impunity at home. And it's the crimes of the Stalin era, the crimes of the Stalin era are tied to the exaltation of the state and its interest over the dignity, the rights of the individual. It's the impunity of the Soviet and then Russian governments that the impunity that they've enjoyed is directly linked to the rights violations that we see today, including those against civil society inside Russia and the war crimes in Chechnya and now in Ukraine.
The tactics of violent repression developed inside the Soviet Union, Russian are being applied today across Belarus and Ukraine. And so despite the liquidation of Memorial by the Russian government, memorial's wide network of organizations, experts and activists continues to work across borders to pursue justice and accountability in Russia. Aleksander Cherkasov, the chair, will share more about this work. We all have come to learn that autocrats and dictators collaborate. They work together, help each other. Autocracy, Inc. They learn from each other. And this makes the cross-border collaboration for human rights defenders even more important. They're fighting the same enemy. And today in Belarus, it's in the grip of not one but two dictators. Fundamental rights and human dignity are not in their vocabulary, but they are in the DNA of the citizens of Belarus.
A pillar of the human rights movement in Eastern Europe. Ales Bialiatski founded Viasna Center in 1996 and he made it its life's goal to protect and assist and defend victims of repression. Under Ales' stewardship, Viana has helped thousands of beleagured Belarusians receive legal and humanitarian support. And he's illuminated the true face of the brutal Lukashenko regime. Because of his unrelenting advocacy on behalf of the vulnerable, Bialiatski is now serving a lengthy, politically motivated jail term, along with five of his colleagues.
And it's a true measure of a dictator's cowardice when the best and brightest are imprisoned in their homeland while the world celebrates their values. So we stand by Ales, Viasna, and all the champions of human dignity who continue to do their work. Kanstantsin Staradubets: will share more of this with us today.
So as Oleksandra has often said, human rights defenders shouldn't be seen or become historians and archivists. The expectations of the citizens of the free world is that the terrible stories of hundreds of innocent victims, including children, hundreds of thousands, will not just be documented, but also lead to the delivery of justice in their lifetime. And so our solidarity is with them and so is our support. And the Nobel Committee's choice of these three laureates made an important statement about a peaceful future in the region. The violence unleashed against Ukraine by Putin and Lukashenko-
Region. The violence unleashed against Ukraine by Putin and Lukashenko regimes has done much to destroy the bonds among these three countries. And yet, Ukraine's victory, which will be necessary for lasting peace in the region, but not sufficient because true security comes when these bonds come together with profound political and social change in Russia and Belarus. So it's fitting, therefore, that the Peace Prize in 2002, a year marked some of the worst horrors of the war, was awarded to these three recipients who have done so much to work towards that change and who embody the values of justice without which there can be no peace. Because of their work, Ukraine will safeguard its freedom. Because of their work, one day, Russia and Belarus will be free. So I'm going to turn the stage over to Bianna Golodryga. We're delighted to have Bianna with us, the senior global affairs and analyst at CNN. She's also a native of Moldova who brings a particular perspective to this as Moldova's fight to be part of the free world as part of this larger story. We're honored to have you all here. Please come to the stage.
Bianna Golodryga:
Well, hello everyone. It's great to see you all in person. And what an honor it is to be here today. A momentous opportunity for all of us to get to hear from these real heroes and people who have fought so valiantly for democracy and human rights. And this is the first time that all three have appeared together on stage since winning the Nobel Peace Prize. So we are all fortunate to hear from them, to see them, to see them talking to one another and sit here together. I'm going to open it up for each of you to give us your thoughts on the significance of this moment and why it's important for you to be here together. After they all speak, then we'll open it up for a conversation for the panel, and then we'll have audience questions after that. So that's going to be the run of show. And I do want to start with Oleksandra, if you can talk about what this means for you today, how your life has changed in many ways since receiving this prize. Your battle continues and yet you choose to be here today.
Oleksandra Matviichuk:
Thank you very much for providing me a floor. It's a huge honor for me to be able to address to this distinguished audience. I'm a human rights lawyer and I work directly with people affected by this war. And I know that in different sharp discussions about Russian war against Ukraine, we very often lost the human dimension. So let's bring it back. This war started not in February 2022, but in February 2014 when people in Ukraine obtained a chance for the quick democratic transition of our country after the Revolution of Dignity. And in order to stop us on this way, Putin started this war of aggression nine years ago, occupied Crimea, part of Lugansk and Donetsk regions and last year extended this war to the large-scale invasion.
Because Putin is not afraid of NATO, Putin is afraid of the idea of freedom. And that is why, it is not just a war between two states, Russia and Ukraine. This is a war between two systems, authoritarianism and democracy. And Putin attempts to convince the whole world with this war that democracy, rule of law and human rights are fake values because they couldn't protect you during the war. And the main question which I want to ask in this audience is, how will people who live in 21 century will protect a human beings? Their lives, their freedoms, and their dignity. Can we rely on the law or just nuclear weapons matter? The answer to this question will define our common future because if we will not be able to restore international order in the nearest future, we can find ourself in the world where not just Russia but other states with a strong military potential and nuclear weapons will dictate the rules of the game to entire international community and even forcibly change internationally recognized borders. In such kind of the world, it'll be dangerous to live for anyone without any exceptions.
All these atrocities which we now documented, it's a result of total impunity, which Russia enjoyed for decades because Russia used the same war crime playbook in Chechnya, in Moldova, in Georgia, in Mali, in Syria, in Libya, in other countries of the world. And they have never been punished. Russians believe they can do whatever they want and that is why. Now I document how quickly this war turned people into the numbers because this scale of war crimes grow so large that it's become impossible to recognize all the stories. But I will tell you one.
This is a story of 14-year-old girl Sophia from Mariupol. She, her mother, her younger sister and small brothers were hiding in basement. One day, the family was bombed by Russian aircraft. And now I quote Sophia, "I went to dig out my mother. I tried to do it with my hands because there were no shovels nearby. Some aircraft were flying around me. I was also scared that moment and I wanted to help my mom. I dug her up so she could breathe. And then I went to ask for help here." Her small brother died immediately. Her mother died after several hours, when she was taken out from the rubble of the residential buildings. What I want to say with this story, people are not numbers. We must return people their names and only justice can do it. That is why we must break the circle of impunity. We must establish special tribunal and hold Putin, Lukashenko, the top political leadership and high military command of Russian state accountable because the life of each person matters.
And I want to conclude that when large-scale invasion started, the civilized world told, "Let's help Ukraine not to fail," and Ukraine obtained first weapons to be able to defend ourselves, and first sanctions against Russia were introduced into the force. And we are extremely grateful for all support which we received from the people from United States of America and other countries in this dramatic time of our history. But it's time to change this narrative to another one. Let's help Ukraine to win fast because there is a huge differences between let's help Ukraine not to fail and let's help Ukraine to win fast. And we can practically measure this difference in types of weapons, in gravity of sanctions and speed of decisions. And one important point. When we say that Ukraine has to win, it means that Russia has to lose.
And we don't have not to be afraid of this fact because the history of humankind convincingly proved that Soviet Union was collapsed. Regardless whether or not we were ready for this, it happened and Russia will lose. It's inevitable. So it's better to be prepared for such situation and help Ukraine to win fast because Putin will stop only when he will be stopped. If it can't stop Putin in Ukraine, he will go further. So let's stop Putin. It's better to do because it's the right thing to do. Thank you.
Bianna Golodryga:
Thank you Alexandra. Kanstantsin, let's talk about Belarus because your organization Viasna reports that as of Tuesday, there are 1,482 persons in Belarus considered political prisoners. Among them we know is Ales Bialiatski. You're wearing him not on your sleeve, but on your heart here representing him. We'll talk about his fight and your fight in a moment. But first, a few thoughts from you as to why this is an important occasion for you to be speaking to this audience and among this panel.
Kanstantsin Staradubets:
Thank you. Right, I'm here to represent Ales Bialiatski, who's among nearly 1,500 police caught prisoners in Belarus. I'm very proud to be here to speak on his behalf. He is in prison today and he cannot travel for obvious reasons after the Belarusian regime gave him the long 10 years following the sham trial on trumped-up charges. We do not have many chances to communicate with Ales while he's in prison. But from the few letters that he received that he sends to his wife, Natallia Pinchuk, who received the award in Oslo on his behalf, we know that he still adheres to the important principles of human rights that defined his activism. Ales is a living legend of the Belarusian civil society. He is a role model for many, me included. He has so many faces. He is a literary critic. He is a veteran opposition activist.
Sorry. We believe that the long sentence that he received, the 10 years he is about to serve is the government's revenge for his principal position, for the role that he played in for the many years of arranging the important assistance to the victims of the regime, specifically following the protests that happened nearly three years ago today. While in prison, he suffers immense pressure. We hope to see him released as soon as possible, alive and in good health. Meanwhile, I'm here to raise his case, to stress that his case is unique and special and that Ales Bialiatski should be released as soon as possible and people around the world and in the United States should know about it, about this prominent human rights defender.
I would also like to share a few messages that I have from Ales Bialiatski. The first one is that the future of Belarus heavily relies on what is happening in Ukraine. And we believe, and he believes, and the human rights defenders of Belarus believe that Russia's aggressive imperialism can only be stopped by helping Ukraine to win. And this, in turn, will help be Belarus to be free and solve too many very urgent issues, including setting Ales Bialiatski free. This is our belief.
Three years ago during the protest that happened across Belarus, Belarusian people chose freedom. And this will of the people was suppressed and has been suppressed over these three years with unprecedented brutal repression, which has directly affected thousands and indirectly millions. The civil society of Belarus, as we knew it, was demolished, forcing hundreds of activists abroad into exile, including me and my colleagues. However, we still continue our work. In the meantime as we are all waiting for Ukraine's victory in its war against Russia, the civil society of Belarus is in need of ongoing support.
This support is needed so that we can provide the very important services to the victims of repression in Belarus who are in even greater need of support today and in the months to come. I would like to stress that one of the dangerous by effects of Lukashenko being involved in Russia's aggression against Ukraine is that today we have nuclear weapons in Belarus and we can see the Wagner Group Masonries being stationed in Belarus. This is a threat not only to Belarus, but to both regional and global security. The majority of Belarusians against Belarus' direct involvement in the war. This is one of the reasons why Belarusian troops have not been yet ordered to cross the border, to attack Ukraine. It is also partially because Belarusians are alien to imperial sentiments, most of them. The final message which I want to share with this audience and those who joined us online is that, there should be no contact with the Lukashenko regime unless three important preconditions are observed. That's ending repression, releasing the political prisoners and ending support in Russia's aggression against Ukraine.
Thank you.
Bianna Golodryga:
You mentioned Wagner troops now being stationed in Belarus. It was just this week where Lukashenko cavalierly said that they were eager to cross the border and to go into Poland as well. And that gives you a sense of the dangerous situation that continues to even become more exacerbated right now. And we should also note that Ales, this is his second unjust prison sentence. He also served time in 2011 to 2014. Let me turn to Memorial and Aleksandr, and let me ask you to weigh in and Aleksandr will be speaking through an interpreter as you see. Memorial was founded in 1989, which was then the Soviet Union. And its aim was to remember millions of innocent people persecuted by Soviet repression, specifically the atrocities committed under Stalin. It was liquidated ahead of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine. So it must be bittersweet to receive the Nobel Peace Prize, having had the company that you've spent so much time working for and with liquidated by your own government. Can you give us your thoughts in opening statements here as to why this is important for you to be here today in speaking to this audience?
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Thank you for the opportunity to be here and to say a few words.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Yes, indeed. We were closed down and I am the director of the former Human Rights Center Memorial.
Bianna Golodryga:
Can you hear?
Interpreter:
Mic went off.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Can you hear me now?
Bianna Golodryga:
Yes.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Wonderful. So yes indeed, the Human Rights Center Memorial was closed down and I'm the director of a closed down center. However, our mission continues. My colleagues continue to work in this area.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Our mission, we thought, was to prevent the repetition of the crimes that were committed in the 20th century, and we failed miserably.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
However, our mission is not over. Our work is not over. My colleagues continue to render human rights assistance. They continue to collect and publish vital information. However, our focus changed, now is the war in Ukraine.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
My colleagues made a collective decision for me to leave the country. However, a new organization, new Memorial organization was created in Russia, chaired by Oleg Orlov.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
And he participated in a number of political rallies. One time he went to the streets with a sign, Soviet Union of 1945 is a country that defeated fascism. And 2022, Russian Federation is a country that propagates fascism.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Now he's on trial. And during his trial hearing, he substantiated this position. He listed every sign and signature of a fascist regime.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
After that, he delineated all of that in an article, which was published afterwards. And for that, a criminal case against him was initiated. And now, he's on trial, he will probably go to prison for three years.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Right now, Oleg Orlov is on trial and he is also a recipient of the Nobel Prize. And he is represented by Dmitry Muratov, also a laureate of the Nobel Prize and the publisher of the New Gazeta, new newspaper.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
But there are plenty of people who are persecuted for their active position. Hundreds, in fact. Some of them are Vladimir Kara- Murza, Alexei Gorin, Dmitri Yashin.
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Ilya Yashin.
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Ilya Yashin.
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Mikhail Krieger.
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Mikhail Krieger.
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Et cetera.
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Et cetera.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Tens of thousands were detained during anti-war manifestations.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Tens of thousands are helping Ukrainians who had to leave their country as well as people who want to leave Russia.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
My job is to write.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
One year after the start of the war, we published a comparative study of post-Soviet wars, the wars in Chechnya, in Syria, and now in Ukraine. And we demonstrated how this cruel mechanism continues to replicate itself.
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Chain of wars, chain of crimes, chain of impunity.
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Alexander said that it is the impunity that made new crimes possible.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
And the main goal right now is to break this vicious circle and this chain of impunity.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
And a special responsibility is on the United States because of its obligations, because of its commitments to peace and security. And in ensuring a new international justice system that would allow to hold those responsible for the crime of aggression.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
And some say that it might prevent negotiations, it might prevent the accomplishment of peace. And here I remember a great American philosopher.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Homer Simpson, who said, "The first attempt is the first step towards failure."
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
And I very much hope that the international community is not going to follow the teachings of this philosopher.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
The chain of impunity must be broken because it is the foundation of the Putin's regime. Thank you.
Bianna Golodryga:
Aleksandr, and thank you all. We'll start the conversation the Q and A for about 30 minutes and then we'll open it up for your questions. Oleksandra, let me start with you. You have been working in human rights for 20 years now, and you've been documenting war crimes, I believe for nine. You say that even with all of your experience, you weren't prepared for the level of atrocities that you've witnessed and documented since Russia's full-scale invasion last year. How many crimes have you documented thus far? I believe in March, it was around 67,000.
Oleksandra Matviichuk:
When large-scale invasion started, we faced with unprecedented numbers of war crimes, and we united our efforts with dozens of regional organizations. We built all Ukrainian network of local documenters and covered the whole country, including the occupied territories. And we have an ambitious goal to document each criminal episode, which was committed in the smallest village in Ukraine. And working together since 24 of February until now, we have in our database more than 45,000 episodes of war crimes, 45,000. It's enormous amount, but still a tip of iceberg because Russia uses war crimes at the methods of warfare.
Russia attempts to break people resistance and occupy Ukraine by the tool which I call the immense pain and suffering of civilian population. It's very important to understand what we are doing, literally. We're not just documenting violations of [inaudible 01:00:09] and hard conventions. We document human pain. Human pain when Russian troops deliberately shell in residential buildings, schools, churches, hospitals, attack evacuation corridors, manage filtration camps system, organize forcible deportations, commit murders, tortures, rape, abductions, and other kind of offenses against civilians. And we do it not just for national archives. I have a huge respect to the work of historians, but I'm not historian. I'm a human rights lawyer. We document it for justice, to have Putin and all Russians who committed these crimes by their own hands accountable. And this is important not just for Ukrainians, not just for people who have already affected by Russian war crimes, but also for people who can be next Russian target.
Bianna Golodryga:
I know it's difficult for you to get into a lot of the hard hit areas, especially those under current Russian occupation. We see continued attack on civilian infrastructure and populations. Odessa has been inundated once again this past week. I'm wondering if you're getting all of the international support that you need because the United States and the US Attorney General's office had offered to help with logistics, but not with any law enforcement specifically. How is that impacting your work?
Oleksandra Matviichuk:
Now we face with the accountability gap, which have two dimensions. Firstly, that there is no international court who can persecute Putin and Lukashenko and their surroundings.
With Putin and Lukashenka and their surroundings for the crime of aggression. And all the atrocities which we are documenting, it's result of their leadership decision to start this war. So we must create special tribunal and hold them accountable. But there are second dimension. International Criminal Court will limit its investigation only to several selected cases. National system is overloaded with an extreme amount of crimes. For current moment only officially more than 92 thousands criminal proceeding were opened. It's impossible to investigate even for the best national system in the world. So we urgently need international assistance to be involved into the level of national investigation and national justice to make the national system capable to face with this challenge. But now I speaking as a human rights lawyer, let's me speak about him as a human being. As a human being, I will not just document, investigate and prosecute war criminals who committed this horrible war crimes. I want to stop this war crimes.
And this means that we need assistance to help Ukraine to win. And this means that we need assistance to help Ukraine to release territories which Russia occupied, because it's a battle not about territories, this is a battle about people who live there. We have no moral rights to leave these people alone for torture and death under Russian occupation. And that is why we're very grateful for all support, which we received, but we need more. And it's very strange and weird to hear from the human rights defenders and Nobel Peace Prize Laureates, but I will be very direct. We need weapons. We need weapons to be able to defend ourselves, our country, our people, and our democratic choice.
Bianna Golodryga:
The ICC arrest warrant issued a few months ago for Vladimir Putin and his Commissioner for Children's Affairs, Maria Lvova-Belova for the forced deportation of Ukrainian children. You said that was a significant moment. And you had previously said that this is a bigger issue than just a war crime. Explain why.
Oleksandra Matviichuk:
First, I will tell why it's significant moment. Because now I found myself in the circumstances when the law doesn't work. But I do believe that it's temporary. And this decision of international Criminal Court has sent a very clear signal that we don't care that this arrest warrant is issued against the current head of a state which has nuclear power, we don't care that this arrest warrant was issued against the current head of a state which are member of permanent council in UN, if this current head of state commit war crimes, he will be accountable. And I just can welcome such kind of thinking. This is a world where I want to live I'm. But why I tell that it just an element of the most broader picture. This war has a genocidal intent. And Putin very openly say that Ukrainian nation has no right to exist, there is no Ukrainian nation, there is no Ukrainian language, there is no Ukrainian culture. And then we can see how on Russian TV, Russian propagandists tell that Ukrainian has to be either reeducated as Russians or killed.
And then in practice we document how Russian troops, when they occupy territories, deliberately exterminate local people there. Priests, artists, journalists, human rights defenders, anyone who can organize even non-violence resistance. How Russian troops prohibited Ukrainian language, Ukrainian history, and in this regard, this illegal deportation of Ukrainian children to Russia, to Russian reeducated camp, to Russian family in order to be brought up as Russians is a part of genocidal policy. How to ruin the Ukrainian nation. Because if you want totally or partially destroy some group, there is no necessity to kill them all. You can forcibly change their people identity and the entire group will disappear. And that is why we can't stop fighting. If we stop fighting, they will be no more us.
Bianna Golodryga:
And we saw plainly, I remember a few months ago, where Russian children or the Ukrainian children were paraded in Moscow at the stadium there. And they were thanking their hero Russian soldiers for saving them from Mariupol. These were nine and 10 year old children who were forced to put on this charade for the Russian audience. Vladimir Putin was standing right there. And you're right, the ICC did have some sort of impact with that arrest warrant. It appears Vladimir Putin canceled a trip to South Africa, perhaps for that reason. Alexandr, I want to turn to you. You had said that despite being liquidated and closed, your work continues. Can you elaborate more on exactly how you're continuing to operate outside the country?
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
I continue much the same work as I have done all these years. I probably was a terrible chairman of community of a center, however, I am a pretty good analyst.
[Speaking in Russian]
The same crimes that were committed 20 years ago in Chechnya and never were investigated, the same crimes continue now. And what's more, the same people who committed those crimes continue to commit current crimes.
[Speaking in Russian]
Even those investigations, those cases that were opened 20 years ago, the investigation could go on. For example, one of the cases of Anna Politkovskaya, I was able to identify all the culprits. And I believe that those old crimes should be reopened and should be fully investigated.
[Speaking in Russian]
For example, oh, and these events have a direct impact on current events. One case in point, Igor Strelkov, he was the person who started the war in the east of Ukraine. He was the one responsible for shooting down the Malaysian Boeing. Now his name is in the news again, recently he has been arrested.
[Speaking in Russian]
He was one of the functionaries. He was one of the organizers of the system of enforced disappearances, so-called death squadrons.
[Speaking in Russian]
And he's responsible for hundreds of murders. And I could give you at least 10 confirmed names.
[Speaking in Russian]
He wasn't punished for those crimes and that allowed him to go on.
[Speaking in Russian]
However, There are plenty of people who surfaced at every post-Soviet war. And these people need to be found, they need to be identified, they need to be hunted, much like Nazi criminals after World War II.
[Speaking in Russian]
Some say that this kind of persecution of these criminals would prevent post-war reconciliation.
[Speaking in Russian]
My colleague, was describing a dangerous situation forming up in Belarus, the place that now houses dangerous weapons, nuclear weapons and houses dangerous people such as Prigozhin.
[Speaking in Russian]
But Russia is stuffed with such dangerous characters. The people who are not even hiding, who are not operating undercover. And Russia also has nuclear weapons.
[Speaking in Russian]
So we are not just talking human rights, we are not just talking about global justice or overcoming impunity. We are talking about global security.
[Speaking in Russian]
And our efforts, one would say, concerns only history, nevertheless, it is very relevant today.
[Speaking in Russian]
And I intend to continue.
Bianna Golodryga:
Aleksandr, we heard from Alexandra earlier that it's not enough for Ukraine to win the war, but Russia needs to lose. I'm wondering your thoughts on that, how you view, if you agree with her? Because I go back to Vladimir Putin calling organizations like yours, calling people like you, calling opponents and dissidents to the war as fifth column, as scum, as traitors. Feel free to leave the country, he doesn't want you there. And it seems like his biggest threat today is coming not from the progressive activists or opposition, but from people who are even more right wing than he is, like a Prigozhin. So in your view, it's Alexandra right, that it's not just Ukraine's win that we need to strive for, it's Russia's loss?
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Well, I probably will voice not my personal opinion, but a general consensus that was formed among the opponents of the regime who left Russia and who gathered up in late April in Berlin. They formulated a general position. Yes, of course those who left Russia encounter certain problems. However, much more importantly for us are people who stayed, who chose to stay behind and who continue their work. It's important for us to help them. But the most important goal for all of us is the dismantling of the Putin's regime.
But the overarching objective for the Russian opposition is the victory of Ukraine. Because without it, we will not be able to deal with all other tasks on our agenda. And many of my colleagues are also helping. I mentioned that helping Ukrainians who were forcibly moved to Russia to leave the country. And I would say our assistance to them as well as to the Ukrainians who are in Ukraine is also an important goal. And I think in general, this is a truly patriotic position. My friend and colleague, Oleg Orlov is a true patriot and that's the reason he did what he did and that's the reason why he's now held in prison.
Bianna Golodryga:
Before we turn to Kanstantsin, one last question. And Aleks, are you worried that whatever replaces Vladimir Putin's regime could put your colleagues who are still in Russia and even more in danger?
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
We have such experience. Actually in 1953, there was one man who died that year, and that man was surrounded by accomplices, by allies, by his [inaudible 01:19:00]. Well, and all of them, all these people rushed to dismantle the regime that that man who died created. And first among them was the National Security Director, Lorenity Barrier. So just like let's not be afraid of the worst things that might happen in the future, otherwise the future will come without us. And just like Homer Simpson said, "Our children are our future unless we stop them." Don't stop children.
Bianna Golodryga:
Homer Simpson, our national poet laureate. Well, I wish I had had some of your optimism, so I appreciate hearing that. Kanstantsin, we talked about Ales and his wellbeing right now. In May, a friend told CNN that contact had been lost with him for a month. Also that month, more than 100 Nobel Laureates had called for his release. And at the Nobel lecture given by Natalia Pinchuk in her husband's honor when she received the prize, she shared some of his thoughts where he said, "I recently had a short dialogue. When will you be released?" They asked me, "I am already free. And my soul was my reply. My free soul hovers over the dungeon and over the maple leaf outlines of Belarus." What does that say about Alice's spirit and the foundation, which was organized in 1996 and its fight for the human rights situation compared to where we stand now?
Kanstantsin Staradubets:
That that says that Ales, just like Alexandr's colleague Oleg Orlov who stayed in Russia, Ales stayed in Belarus and he knew he would be arrested. And it takes immense courage to do that. But it also actually frees you even if you are in prison. And that's what he described in the quote that you just read out, that he is actually not in captivity spiritually. In his mind he's free. And that is because he strongly believes in what he preaches, in what he has done all those years. And he also is feels this direct responsibility for the organization that he founded 27 years ago. He understands how important the work of human rights defenders in Belarus is, how important it is to continue to to lead this movement of human rights, whether you are in prison or free.
Bianna Golodryga:
You said that if Ukraine wins and Lukashenko falls, the transition to democracy will be a quick one. And I'd like to pick up on that, because it does seem like the crackdown against dissidents and against those who are seeking human rights activists and advocating for them has only increased, especially since the election, the sham election of 2020. Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya remains in exile. So why do you think there's hope for a quick transition to democracy in the country right now?
Kanstantsin Staradubets:
Well, several reasons which make me belief make this assumption, which I think will come true. First is because the majority of Belarusians do not actually support the government's policies. That's a proven fact. We know it for sure. Also, we believe that when this change comes, when this opportunity for a change come. The system of Lukashenko's regime will collapse, just like Putin's regime will collapse. That's inevitable. That's how it operates. That's the structure of the system. And we also believe that having a functional and vibrant civil society at this point will help make this transition quick, peaceful and durable. Durable in the sense of the democracy that is going to come because the human rights defenders are the champions of those values that are going to be the basis of the future of free Belarus.
Bianna Golodryga:
Give us a snapshot of what life is like in Belarus right now. Because unfortunately from the outside world, we seem to be covering it only when there's certain news of meetings between Lukashenko and Vladimir Putin, Yevgeny Prigozhin sightings in the country right now. But we know that more than 500 lawyers have been stripped of licenses and quit the profession since 2020. 36 journalists are currently in jail right now. What is the situation like there?
Kanstantsin Staradubets:
Well, in terms of repression, it is daily for three years already. That means daily arrest, daily trials, daily ill-treatment on the part of the police. Daily torture and prisons. In terms of the entire society, we perceive, we get signals and evidence from people in Belarus that the atmosphere is an atmosphere of terror. People not speaking about the silent part of the society will always remain silent. But the people who supported the protest three years ago, and we believe that there are hundreds of thousands of them, only those who took to the streets, and there are many more who have supported that movement. Since they identify themselves, associate themselves with that movement for human rights for a better future for Belarus, they feel insecure that this tension, it is not ending for three years. That creates this atmosphere of terror that prevents people from living normal lives, from raising their children, from having any hopes for a better future.
Bianna Golodryga:
How alarmed should we be at what appears to be closer ties, whether it's for fear of the fallout, continued fallout from the failed mutiny, between Alexander Lukashenko and Vladimir Putin? Because there did seem to be a bit of him, of Lukashenko in particular that we saw emboldened over the last few weeks.
Kanstantsin Staradubets:
Well, it is alarming, especially to the people of Belarus, because we know what Russian mercenaries could do what they did in Ukraine. This is absolutely shocking. So we really care about people of Belarus and we sympathize with them. But it is also alarming to the nations that the neighbors of Belarus, because the things that Lukashenko says and what the Prigozhin says, they do not contribute to a safe environment around Belarus, definitely. And that has already caused some response from Poland and Lithuania in terms of security. And that's only increases this cycle of tension and insecurity.
Bianna Golodryga:
I have a couple more questions for all of you to just answer and then we'll open it up for audience questions. And Alexandra's Nobel lecture, given last December, you posed the question, "How can we make human rights meaningful again?" Do all of you agree that human rights have indeed lost meaning in the world today? I'll start with you.
Kanstantsin Staradubets:
Well, I'm more of a pessimist maybe, since my boss is in prison. That's the outcome of what you describe, human rights losing its essential meaning. That is true, especially for the region that I represent. But globally, I think that human rights are... Okay, I believe in the human progress. It is irreversible, in my opinion, in the countries that are champions of democracy and human rights. In those countries, in the top supporters of democracy in Belarus, human rights are there forever, I'm pretty sure.
Bianna Golodryga:
Alexandr, what would Homer Simpson say to that question?
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
There are A lot of things in common between Homer Simpson and me, because he worked at the nuclear power plant and so was I. Also, my constitution is somewhat similar. Well, joking aside, the human crisis is in evidence, but the difference is that it's not that Vladimir Putin is trying to promote some different values, it's just he has absolutely none. His position is that there are no such thing as values. There are only interests, and values are valuable only because they're used as a face, as a mask for one's interests.
So people who are not working for him must work for his enemies. They must be foreign agents. However, This approach that there are no values is actually a very infectious approach. A lot of other countries copycatted the foreign agent legislation, they were inspired by this approach. So it is actually quite a formidable undertaking to resuscitate, to resurrect the values. However, other politicians, not Putin, but others, they present human rights and other values. I think I have already demonstrated how in current unthinkable situation, the human rights, the overcoming of impunity could become a foundation of sorts. Human rights could become an important and valuable idea. If every time they will be thought of, they would always be in a corner of one's mind and will always be applied to every situation. Otherwise, it is just dead letters on a dead piece of paper.
Bianna Golodryga:
Before I open it up for the audience questions, it is symbolic, as we noted that a Ukrainian, a Belarusian, and a Russian are co-laureates. And Alexandra, some Ukrainians do not agree with that decision. I heard from people online and on Twitter that they were surprised that even the three of you would be here together. How do you respond to that criticism?
Oleksandra Matviichuk:
First, I want to explain to the audience why some part of Ukrainian society criticize this decision of Nobel Committee. Because sometimes it's not understandable for international community. But when Ukrainians see this title, Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus together, it's immediately refer us to the Soviet Union time and this big myth about sisters nations, which was a huge lie because there was no sister nations, only one nation.
... because there was no sister nations. Only one nation was dominate, only one language was dominate, and only one culture was dominate. And now when we are in war, and Russia and Belarus are countries aggressors, it's become extremely painful to accept this lie. And that is why I explain to Ukrainian society that this award not about countries, this award about people.
And if we want to refer to the Soviet Union, let's refer to the dissidents movements. When people who stood up their ways for freedom from different countries work together, built invisible ties even for their own societies and fight jointly against common evil who try dominate in our part of the world and now we see how history is repeated.
I work with Russian and Belarus human rights defenders for years before this war started in 2014 and even more intense when the war started after 2014. And I extremely grateful for my human rights colleagues that when I applied for them with hundreds requests of help about Ukrainian political prisoners, about finding very about of illegally detained Ukrainian civilians, about doing something in unbelievable circumstances in which their work, they always respond me with help and assistance.
The only problem is that such kind of people as my brave human rights colleague, it's a tiny minority in Russia. Unfortunately, the majority of Russians either support this war of aggression or decided to take the position of their official government. And this also refer return us why my colleagues told that success of Ukraine will open the past to democratic future of Russia and Belarus itself because it's helped the majority of Russian to reflect their own imperialistic culture. They need to be defeated. They need to understand that it's not okay in 21 century to invade in other countries, to kill people, to deny their identity, that they have to find another basis for Russian glory.
Bianna Golodryga:
So I have questions that have already been submitted from the audience, but for those who are joining online, we have asked that you submit your questions via the QR code or via the YouTube chat online.
Here let's get to some of the questions now. Aleksandr, "What is the best," to the point we were just talking about, "What is the best, most effective way for us to strengthen and support Russian resistors working to disintegrate Putin's regime, Russians both inside and abroad." That question was asked by Barbara.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Well, you see many people in Russia who are working in this area think that they alone, that there are no other like-minded individuals that they are facing along this government monster of a concrete compactor.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Russian authorities are boiling the situation slowly. They're slowly taking away access to free media, to the social networks. You could only access them through a VPN. Now VPN is being rolled back.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
The West, but the Western sanctions actually complicate access to the internet for everybody, including the opponents of the regime.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
One would need to think about while not throwing the baby with the water while suppressing the regime, not to suppress also the opponents of the regime.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
But apart from, the problem of political prisoners, apart from the fact that human rights defenders are becoming few and far between, we also need to remember... [foreign language 01:39:03]?
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
That we should not leave a person alone facing something like that alone.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
My case in point and my teachers are Polish solidarity movement and they told stories about how they used to help people who were facing much the same situation after the introduction of the martial law.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
So then perhaps we will find out something very unusual that the majority does not belong to Putin, that the majority is a number of loners who feel certain way.
Bianna Golodryga:
Kanstantsin, let me ask you a question that Sylvia submitted. "Belarus has been supporting Russia against Ukraine, allowing weapons and troops who go through the country. How can normal citizens oppose the war? Are they doing so and is it not getting media coverage?"
Kanstantsin Staradubets:
Belarusians did a lot after the Russia invaded Ukraine, including through the territory of Belarus. They provided media, pre-media and Ukrainians with photos of footage of Russian troops moving through Belarus. But the response, the violent response of the government to those attempts to leak information actually stopped any attempts to do so in the future because people were shot at. The people who just shared photos online received huge prison sentences up to 15 years in prison.
I cannot blame Belarusians not to do so today, especially since the military presence of Belarus is not that, is much lesser today than it was after the war started. However, we can expect that now that the Wagner mercenaries in Belarus, those cases of people expressing their civic position by sharing information about Wagner troops in Belarus can result in new repressions against those people involved result in new violence, prison terms, including the long ones.
Bianna Golodryga:
Oleksandra, this question comes from Janet and I'm glad we were addressing this. Janet says, " American politicians' actions are in part motivated by what their voters push for. What do Americans need to understand better about the war that they may not understand well today?"
And this is coming as we're approaching a presidential election year in this country as well. Typically, foreign policy isn't a top priority for Americans when they do go cast their ballots. What is your response to that question? Why should this be more of a priority for Americans? And I'm just going to add on to this, what do you make of the kerfuffle that came out of NATO about just how much gratitude Ukraine should express to the West?
Oleksandra Matviichuk:
I think that it's very important to emphasize once again that this war has not just military or economic or informational, but very visible value dimension. This is whereabout values, different set of values.
For example, I'm a woman and maybe you will be interested to know that 60 thousands of Ukrainian women joined Ukrainian armed forces. Among them, my friend Adriana Sosak who left her six-year-old son to fight for her son peaceful and democratic future. And in this war we as Ukrainian women fighting also for our rights because when we speak about Russian world and all type of authoritarian regimes, women play their very assigned role for them in society and family.
And this is a basis for all authoritarian regimes because how people behave between each other is just a projection how power behave to people. And that is why in Norway, men and women have equal rights, in Afghanistan, women are prohibited to study in university and in Russia, the domestic violence were decriminalized because once again, it's always a projection how power behave towards their own people.
And in this war, Ukrainian women are fighting also for our daughters not to be obliged in future to convince anyone that we are all human beings. So this is very important. This is a war about values, and this war has no limitation in national borders when we speak about value senses and ideas.
You mentioned before my noble peace speech and I told that we have to return human right there meaning because I saw how well-developed democracies for decades compromised with dictatorship and this because they want to obtain some short-term benefits and that is why they based their decision in external policy, not only on economical benefit or security issue, or geopolitical interests, but Russia is a clear example.
Even if you have this short-term benefits, you will have a huge catastrophe in long term when you don't put your decisions on the human rights values, which you declare. And that is why it's so important, the understand that there are a lot of things which have no limitation in national borders, freedom, such kind of things. And solidarity is such kind of things and people have a much more impact that they can even imagine.
I know what I'm saying about it because I was in Kyiv when Russian troops tried to circle it and not just Putin, even our international partners saw that Kyiv will fall in three or four days. I received dozens and dozens of call with request to immediate evacuation. But what I want to tell that that time when international organizations evacuated from Kyiv, ordinary people remained and ordinary people start to do extraordinary things and suddenly it become very visible that people who believe in freedom and fight for freedom are even stronger than the second army in the world. That belief in values have a very visible, practical impact and change the reality completely.
So that is why I myself, optimistic in nature, I look in future with optimism. I don't see the future will be easy, it will be difficult. But I know when you can't rely on the law or international system of peace and security, when you can't rely on responsible politician decisions in different countries, you can still rely on people. And that is why I will use this chance to once again apply to people in United States of America and other countries with a call for solidarity. We have fight for freedom. Freedom has no limitation in national borders, only spread of freedom make our world safer.
Bianna Golodryga:
And I think we have time for maybe one or two max more questions. And, Aleksandr, I want to ask you this from Brian. "How do you see opposition in Russia reaching a tipping point to overthrow the Putin regime? When and how do you see people tiring of losing and doing something in mass, either the bureaucrats around Putin or the public?
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Some of my friends every morning watch the news to find out if Putin is still alive.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
When so many people want the same thing, perhaps it would happen.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Nevertheless, it erodes one's consciousness.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
When you are a runner and you run and behind each corner you expect to see a finish line, you will not make it too far.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
You cannot maintain a sprinter breathing rhythm and run a marathon.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
People who were in prison under Stalin who were sent to prison for 25 years and who every year expected something to happen, for Americans to drop a nuclear bomb or for something like that, they did not survive. They actually went insane.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
20 years ago I said practically the same words to my Chechen colleagues, when we sent our application to the Strasbourg court.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
The Strasbourg made a number of verdicts. It deliberated a number of cases, but nothing happened. Nothing has happened.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
I'm afraid that if people are waiting for a miracle every day, they will get tired.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Nevertheless, when something happens, it happens unexpectedly.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
The Czech Republic colleagues had this adage. They said, "We are together forever with the Soviet Union, but not one day more."
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
That's when that day would come and that's when we would have to exert a lot of effort. However, it doesn't mean that we should do nothing in the meantime.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
When a landscape is uncertain and when your maps lie, then it's important to count on your compass.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
But not the simple compass. But Jack Sparrow, Captain Jack Sparrow's compass.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
The one that points at your heart most desire.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
And when the Soviet Union collapsed, many people wished for the same thing. It's not that they wanted anybody dead, it's just they had a common vision.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
And for us, our common vision is human rights.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Let us try not to lose our compass.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
And sometimes your compass helps everybody else.
Bianna Golodryga:
Okay, and one last quick question before we conclude. Every Nobel Prize ask laureate to donate an object to the Nobel Prize Museum. Have you decided what that object is? Do you know what Ales is?
Kanstantsin Staradubets:
No, not yet. Especially since there is not much opportunities to contact him, but I think yeah, yeah, many of his belongings are available, I hope so. Those that are not arrested or ceased by the authorities and I'm sure that it can be done.
Bianna Golodryga:
Oleksandra?
Oleksandra Matviichuk:
Our organization is famous for our ability of mass involvement of ordinary people into human rights work. Like my colleagues previously told, if we left human rights defense only for experts, for lawyers, for diplomats, we will fail because human rights is a special way of thinking how people perceive this world and this way of thinking, then resulting in practical decisions and practical actions.
And that is why we have already provided to Nobel Peace Museum one very common in Ukraine item, it's item of civil observer. It's a like special wallet of civil observer who we started this initiatives and teach ordinary people how to provide civil monitoring of the action of power, police, courts, local authorities. Why we think that it's important? Yes, ordinary people are not experts, but they have common sense. They have wisdom, they have desire to live in a space without fear of violence and this is important.
And common people have to take responsibility on their own shoulders. Now in this war, when I ask myself why we faced with so cruelty, I answered because Russian troops try to provide so much pain to Ukrainian that ingrains this learned helplessness among people and what we can contract to this pain? Just our own human responsibility, that we can't transfer our responsibility to politicians, to international community, to someone else, that we have to bring this responsibility to our own shoulders and to stand.
And that is why when we speak about people, it's very important what people think, but it's their civil obligation to act how they are thinking and to be active in a time of crisis. Because we never choose the country in which we are born. We never choose the time in which we are born. We can only choose, will we be honest people and try to take responsibility and fight with injustice or we keep silence and help evil to dominate? This is the only one choice which exist.
Bianna Golodryga:
Aleksandr, do you know-
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
[inaudible], during the time of the great terror wrote a requiem where she wrote these words, "I want to name every name, but my list was taken away from me and I don't know where to look for it."
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
The return of actual names, people, faces, people who were consigned to non-existence, who had been consigned to non-existence that is our main mission.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
And we gave to the museum several books with the story, with the life stories of these people, with the life details, including the Book of Disappeared Chechen people.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
We wanted to change people's perception so that they wouldn't look at the world from the angelic heights, but to allow them to zoom in.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
If children are to grow up looking at these faces, at these human faces of history, they will grow up to be true citizens. They will understand the correlation point between their actions and the future.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
That's how slowly we would be able to transform our society into such a society where repetition of past crimes would be unthinkable.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
And these were several books with human faces, human life stories were our gift to the museum.
Bianna Golodryga:
Well, that is fascinating and I think this is a perfect way to end this really enlightening conversation, so I want to thank you. I thank Carnegie for inviting me and having this distinguished panel all come together for a wonderful conversation and very sobering one as well. Thank you all.
Kanstantsin Staradubets:
Thank you.
