Source: MSNBC
MR. RATIGAN: Michele Dunne, Egypt expert, joining us as well. She works at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and a former State Department official.
Michele, Wael Ghonim, the Google executive who started the Facebook page under the identity of the martyr populating all the stories of abuse, torture, extortion, extraction, you pick it, was released from jail after 12 days, and earlier today said the following. He said, "Dear western governments, you've been silent for 30 years, supporting the regime that was oppressing us. Please don't get involved now."
How much do you think that reflects the feelings in general on the streets of Egypt?
MS. DUNNE: Well, certainly there was a feeling in Egypt that the United States supported Mubarak and that we were relatively inattentive to the demands coming from Egyptian society for a long time for change. And recently -- during the recent crisis, I think there was sort of a rough start to U.S. policy, a lot of mixed messages coming out. More recently, I think that President Obama has been very clear in his support for the demonstrators, their demands for democratic change. I'm hoping that message has now gotten through.
But I think, you know, what you hear Wael Ghonim saying is, you know, they don't want to see us somehow getting very worried about stability in Egypt and throwing our support behind something that would be less than a full transition to democracy.
MR. RATIGAN: Congressman Schiff, the implications of American foreign policy and the framing of our dialogue, as America is being forced to witness millions of young Arab men behaving and exhibiting themselves in an intelligent and peaceful manner after having been told for over a decade that young Arab men are murderous maniacs that want to kill us?
REP. SCHIFF: Well, I think these changes really help align American foreign policy with our best ideals, and that is support for the democratic aspirations of all people. Democracy is not the birthright of one particular group and not another. And I think we're seeing this played out in the streets of Egypt.
We, I think, have a continuing role to play here, though. We have a very strong relationship with the Egyptian military, which is going to be very important going forward. We want to use that relationship to make sure that the military follows through with what the citizens are demanding, that it is, in fact, a democratic transformation. They're obviously going to play a key role in this transition. And I think we can be instrumental in helping to push the military to do that.
I don't misunderstand by any means the concern Egyptians have. We haven't always lived up to our ideals. And they may very well have legitimate concerns that we might put stability over their democracy aspirations. That, I think, would be a mistake. It would result in losing another generation of Egyptians in terms of their opinion of the United States.
But I have to say, Dylan, I find it so intriguing to watch the reaction in Iran and the contortions they have to go through to explain why protests in Egypt are good and should be celebrated, but not in Iran; why political prisoners in Egypt should be released, but not in Iran. And it is really quite incredible to see how they're trying to cope with this demand now of the reformers in Iran to be able to take to the streets in celebration of what's happening in Egypt. So they're in quite a quandary. And it's really been terrific to watch them twist in that.
MR. RATIGAN: What of Iran's twisting, Michele?
MS. DUNNE: Well, I think -- I think the congressman's absolutely right. I don't see Iran as benefiting from this situation.
I've heard some people say that removing Mubarak as a U.S. ally somehow is going to be to the advantage of Iran. I really don't see it that way.
I see Iran's got a new democracy next door in Iraq, even though it reached that place by a very different route; a new democracy being born in Tunisia, and let's hope also in Egypt, although I share the congressman's reservations that we really have to see what's going to happen going forward. And I think, you know, in the end, having governments in this region that share U.S. values is going to be to the good of the West and not to Iran.
MR. RATIGAN: Representative Engel, in brief, because this question is much bigger than the time we have this afternoon, best- case scenario from the perspective of the Israeli government?
REP. ENGEL: Well, there has been a peace treaty, as you know, between Egypt and Israel for 30 years. I believe it's done both countries well and I believe it's done the Middle East well. I think it's been a cold peace. It hasn't been the peace that we or the Israelis had hoped for. But it's been a peace. And I think it would be to the benefit of both countries to continue it. And I would think that the United States behind the scenes would encourage it.
I think the Israeli government behaved properly by keeping quiet and not becoming a factor in the uprising or in the demonstrations. But obviously it's a very important part of U.S. policy. And I think that's one of the reasons we tolerated some of the improprieties of the Mubarak regime, because he went along with the peace treaty for all these times.
And, of course, the problem that I think that we have is that while we want to show support to the aspirations of people wanting democracy -- and I think that's very, very important as a bottom line for us -- in some ways we don't want to be seen as an unreliable ally; that the minute a head of a country slips, we kick them in the teeth. And I think that's what President Obama was sort of, you know, grasping for to try to kind of broaden it and try to make it seem like we weren't kicking him out the door. But I think the dye has been cast. I think it's a wonderful thing.
And I do agree with what was said about Iran. I think that it's really amazing to me that during the demonstrations in Egypt that the Iranian regime had the gall to encourage it and saying that it was great and freedom-loving, when they brutally put down their people. And I would hope that the United States would show some encouragement to these kinds of movements, particularly in Iran. And I think we frankly didn't do enough encouragement when it happened in the summer of '09.
MR. RATIGAN: Yeah, I agree with you on that.
Michele, you get the last word. The shifting sands of American foreign policy are incredibly fast-moving right now. Are we keeping up? Can we keep up?
MS. DUNNE: Well, look, as we have seen, the initiative really is there in the region. Things are happening in the region. I'm sure when President Obama came to office, he didn't think that democracy in the Middle East was going to be a major issue for his presidency. He thought maybe Israeli-Palestinian peace, for example, if we looked at this region.
But we see that, you know, things are happening out there in this region. It's young. It's dynamic. And, you know, we're going to be -- we're going to be following them. We're not going to be setting the pace here.
MR. RATIGAN: All right, listen, thanks to all three of you. Congressman Engel, thank you. Congressman Schiff, a pleasure. Thank you, guys. Michele, thanks again for rejoining us.