Source: MSNBC
ED SCHULTZ, HOST: Good evening, Americans. And welcome to THE ED SHOW tonight from New York. Our lead story tonight: a live report coming up from Japan in just a moment. And a huge story in Wisconsin over the weekend, forget about the Tea Party, even busing people to Washington, D.C. They never once managed to rally as big as this one in Madison, Wisconsin. Call it what you want, the birth of a movement -- a call for arms to working Americans, a rally for the cause of a living wage and human dignity.
We`re going to have full coverage of this massive turning point, what it means for us as Americans, and the president`s strategy. And the latest on the Republicans who awakened the sleeping giant, and are now fighting for their political lives.
But, first, it`s late Tuesday morning in Japan right now. As day five of this unfolding disaster brings us yet another explosion at a nuclear plant, turning this into the second worst accident at a nuclear plant in history. And even away from the plant, millions of survivors are still wondering, what comes next after another day of aftershocks, fires, and tsunami alerts.
At this hour, 10,000 are feared dead, tens of thousands are still missing, a half million homeless, 2.6 million without power, half as many thought to be without water. The earthquake that struck Friday afternoon now officially measured at 9.0. And just a few hours ago, the Fukushima power plant experienced its third explosion in four days. And tonight, Japan`s nuclear safety agency said it suspects the explosion may have damaged the reactor container, itself. Emergency workers are battling to prevent a potential catastrophic release of radiation. But a spokesman for the nuclear safety agency told "The Associated Press," quote, "a leak of nuclear material is feared." Hundreds of thousands have been evacuated from a 12-mile radius as officials distribute potassium iodide in nearby shelters. Experts warn that a full meltdown cannot be ruled out. Joining me now to discuss this unfolding nuclear crisis is James Acton of the Carnegie Endowment for Peace.
Mr. Acton, good to have you with us tonight. What is the latest on this situation with these reactors in this latest breaking news on this? How do you view this? How seriously does it change the situation?
JAMES ACTON, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR PEACE: Well, Ed, the news from reactor two is pretty grim at the moment because there appears to be two simultaneous problems. Firstly, there is this long-running challenge of trying to cool the fuel rods in the core. And the plant operators have recently said that 1.7 meters, and that`s a significant amount of fuel rods, are now above water. But, secondly, there was also an explosion inside the outer walls of the reactor itself. The fear is that explosion has damaged those outer walls and that creates the potential for the release of radiation.
SCHULTZ: How does this compare to Three Mile Island and Chernobyl?
ACTON: Well, I think Chernobyl is an unhelpful comparison, actually. In the Chernobyl accident, a very large fraction of the radioactivity within the core of the reactor was explosively strewn all around the surrounding area. It is very unlikely either that there will be a similarly large explosion or that such a large quantity of radiation will be spewed.
SCHULTZ: Mr. Acton, give us the worst-case scenario right now. What`s the worst-case scenario and what does this mean for the survivors?
ACTON: Well, the worst-case scenario is there is extensive melting of the core. And at that point, the core could effectively turn into a molten mush known as curium, and burn through the bottom of the reactor vessel. The good news, if there`s a good side to this, is that even under extensive core melting, a large release of radiation is not guaranteed.
Under the Three Mile Island accident, for instance, there was very extensive core melting but only a small release of radiation into the environment.
So, I think that the Japanese analysis that a large release, a very significant release of radiation into the environment is fortunately unlikely even though I don`t want to play -- underplay the seriousness of this unfolding crisis.
SCHULTZ: So, this is a game changer. I mean, this is as severe as it`s been so far through this crisis.
ACTON: That`s right. I mean, what`s particularly worrying at the moment is the confluence of two problems simultaneously, the challenge of cooling the fuel rods and now, what appears to be damage to the containment vessel. What that means is if there is -- if the core does start to melt more significantly, it`s going to be harder to keep that radiation within the containment building if it is indeed breached.
SCHULTZ: And what does this mean for pumping the seawater in to cool all of this?
ACTON: Well, they`re continuing to pump the seawater into it. And Tepco, that`s the plant operator, reported at their news conference that inside the steel vessel in which the fuel rods, themselves, are based, the level of water and the pressure of steam was remaining constant. Now, if there is one piece of good news to cling to, it`s that, because if that story is correct -- and I want to emphasize the confusion surrounding this event at the moment -- but if that story is correct, then it means the integrity of the reactor vessel itself is holding together. And that is going to potentially prevent -- hopefully, prevent the worst case outcome here.
SCHULTZ: Have we been given good enough information from the Japanese government?
ACTON: You know, Ed, it`s very hard to assess that at the moment. I, like many experts, have been frustrated by the slow pace of information. But we`ve also got to recognize that Japan suffered the largest earthquake in its history, a massive tsunami, the operators all probably have their own personal tragedies, and they`re having to deal with this situation in three reactors.
So, I think the -- in the investigation, we`re going to have to look at who understood what, when, and whether information was being withheld. But right now, given the extraordinary challenges that the Japanese operators are working under right now, I do think it`s too early to share the blame on that front.
SCHULTZ: But we are undoubtedly in uncharted waters right now.
ACTON: We are. I think that`s right. I mean, you know, there`s only been one event in nuclear history where there was a substantial degree of core melting and that was at Three Mile Island. So, there`s a very small experience base if you like to predict how this crisis is going to unfold from here.
SCHULTZ: James Acton, thank you for your time tonight.
ACTON: My pleasure.
SCHULTZ: I appreciate your expertise as this breaking story unfolds. For those in other parts of the country, rolling blackouts and empty supermarket shelves. That`s common. In the hardest hit areas of northeastern Japan, we`re still getting the full scope of the disaster, loved ones searching for missing folks and shelters and makeshift hospitals are full. And the Japanese broadcaster NHK reports many shelters are running out of food and fuel.
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SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW. There is breaking news at this hour. A fourth reactor is on fire in Japan. Rejoining us now is James Acton of the Carnegie Endowment for Peace. And we are also joined by NBC News chief science and health correspondent, Robert Bazell, who is in Tokyo. Gentlemen, this situation seems to be more dire by the moment. Mr. Acton, you just heard the prime minister of Japan speak a few moments ago. What did he say about this fire at a fourth reactor? And more radiation has been released? What did he say?
ACTON: Well, Ed, this is really the end of a truly awful 24 hours, even by the standards of this terrible crisis. The prime minister mentioned a fire at the fourth reactor. And then the cabinet secretary elaborated a bit more.
Basically, he said that the fire was associated with the spent fuel storage areas in the fourth reactor. Now, I should take a step back. That fourth reactor was shut down for refueling at the time that the earthquake hit. And so it wasn`t in nearly so critical a condition. There wasn`t highly radioactive fuel in the core that needed cooling.
Nevertheless, there was highly radioactive spent fuel, either in the spent fuel storage pools or in the process of being transferred from the reactor to those pools. And there has been a fire in some way associated with those pools.
SCHULTZ: Bob Bazell, the Japanese prime minister warned residents within 19 miles to stay indoors. Why wouldn`t getting any further away from that be an option? Why would he put a limit on it?
ROBERT BAZELL, NBC NEWS CHIEF SCIENCE AND HEALTH CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, that is an area that suffered an enormous amount from the devastation of the earthquake and the tsunami. And evacuation is putting even more pressure on people who are horribly stressed already. I don`t want to get into an argument about radiation levels with you or Senator Alexander. But right now the radiation levels are not that high. They`re far higher than they should be. I certainly agree with James Acton that this is a tragic situation that is unfolding here.
But you`re not talking about the kind of radiation levels where you tell everybody to go run for the hills, because it`s not that dangerous when it gets dispersed that far away. And you create panic and you create enormous logistical problems in an area that`s already suffering almost beyond belief.
SCHULTZ: So how significant is this, Bob? What has unfolded tonight? Another explosion, radiation being released, and a fourth reactor, a fire?
BAZELL: It is very significant. This is unfolding as the worst nuclear disaster other than Chernobyl. And I`m not going to get into an argument about those death rates you were citing before at Three Mile Island. I don`t think anybody was hurt at Three Mile Island. And when you talk about nuclear energy, and even in the middle of a crisis like this -- and this is a crisis -- you have to remember that we get our energy from somewhere.
We`re ranting and raving for a long time about the Gulf oil spill and how much damage that was doing. Think about how many people die mining coal every year. You know, as long as we`re looking for energy, we`re going to have to take some risks. This -- what we`re seeing now is very, very bad and very frightening to me, in many ways. But the argument about whether we should have nuclear power is not so simple, based on this one accident or any other accident.
But to get back to the question, this is an unprecedented situation. It makes -- one of the things that I think happens here is that the system, because of the earthquake and the tsunami -- and there are about ten reactors on this one site. And this fire in the reactor that, as Mr. Acton pointed out, is down is a result of people just getting to be overwhelmed by trying to put out one fire or take care of one incident, and then they have to go on to other things.
And so they may take care of the routine maintenance they were doing on this other plant and the fire took place. So a lot of people who were worried about this to start with said that this situation, when it unfolded, because there were initially two reactors and a third and now a fourth -- and there could even be more. There`s ten reactors on that one site -- they warned that this -- of this potential chain reaction effect. I don`t mean that as a bad metaphor to go with the topic, energy.
SCHULTZ: James Acton, Bob Bazell -- Bob Bazell, chief NBC science correspondent. Thank you for joining us tonight on this story.